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In every recent post about Citi cards we have mentioned that you’re not eligible for the sign up bonus if you’ve opened or closed a credit card within the same family in the last 24 months. We also link to our detailed post on that rule. Inevitably somebody asks what happens if you product change/downgrade your card. Does this reset your clock or not? Despite having a section on that linked post regarding downgrades people continue to ask. To answer the question, we don’t have any hard data points and don’t currently know how these product changes affect your eligibility.
Frequent Miler has an interesting theory that product changes within the same brand (e.g one American Airlines card to another or one Citi ThankYou card to another) do not reset the clock and that changes between two different brands (e.g American Airlines card to Citi ThankYou points card) do. I know that this post has no real point, but I wanted to post for two reasons:
- To try and get some hard data points from readers. I think surely somebody has tried this and knows the answer, if that’s you then please share your datapoints!
- To remind readers to read the articles we write properly. A huge number of the questions on this blog are answered in other articles that we have linked to in the article readers are commenting on. If you have a question it’s always a good idea to read the article and any relevant linked articles before asking. I love helping readers but I have a finite amount of time and every question I answer that has already been answered is just less time for me to answer a question that hasn’t been answered.
Data Points
In this section we will share any data points we find/are posted.
- Counted as an opening/closing:
- Between two different families/brands: 1
Follow-up Post: Did Product-Changing your Citi Card Result in a New Card Number?
View Comments (82)
Today I called Citi to convert Premier to Double Cash. When I asked the CSR if the card number would change, she double-checked and said yes. But she assisted me in researching other options and confirmed that custom cash, rewards+ and thank you preferred would have the same number.
So here is a DP -
Jun 2015 - Opened Thank You Premier
Jul 2016 - Converted it to Citi Double Cash
Mar 2017 - Closed the above Citi Double Cash
Aug 2018 - Applied and approved for new Thank You Premier. Received card. The mailer said not eligible for bonus because of 24 months rule. Emailed customer service. Sr Account Supervisor denied bonus eligibility. Emailed again insisting that the card closed on Mar 2017 was Double Cash not Thank You. Sr Escalation Specialist approved bonus eligibility.
I'm assuming your credit card number changed when converting to Double Cash?
Thanks for the DP, Peter!
I had the citi AA exec card. After a year downgraded to citi AA plat card. A year later I went to apply and was advised by Citi that a product change counts as an account opening/closure and I could not get the bonus on a new citi exec card.
appreciate the DP man. i cant believe there are so many conflicting crap here. but i guess the bottom line is that the CSR doesnt really know and the system is rigged to flag even PCs.
What about where old AA Plat Visa card was changed to AA world elite Mastercard? Technically, its within the same family. I have been holding out on the AA Exec since I assumed when that change happened, it reset for everyone.
I think you are referring to when Citi changes over a product? Those changes should not be counted as open/close of a card.
It should at least be counted as open of a card since the World Elite Mastercard is a new "open". Now, based on this theory, its within the same family, so may not block me. But are you sure it doesnt count as "open/close of a card"?
See this - https://www.doctorofcredit.com/citi-visa-platinum-select-cards-to-be-product-changed-to-mastercard-why-you-should-care/
I thought you were referring to a scenario when Citi initiated the change on their own accord.
If you initiate a change - that is the subject of this post, please read the post.
I am talking about citi initiaited change - Visa was closed out, Mastercard with a new number issued.
I am asking if Citi initiated change also counts as open/close similar to the topic of this post. Havent been able to find a clear answer on that.
Yikes! I just PC'd AA Plat to a Dividend. Wondering, If I could somehow undo it, and then PC to a Bronze or something. Don't really plan on using the Dividend too much.
You definitely can undo it! What effect that would have on the 24 month clock is anybody's guess.
DoC - have you tried asking Citi PR folks?
I did try multiple times, but couldn't get a reply.
Makes you wonder why they won't explain their terms in detail. Real reason or just bad PR management? These companies smh.
Naw, I think it's just such a nuanced question they simply don't have an easy way of finding out the answer themselves. It's more how the system takes it from a coding perspective - I wouldn't be surprised if they never even thought about the issue from their end from a policy stand point.
Same type of response from my inquiry. The secure message rep forwarded to another department as did not know.
They might just not know the answer themselves. It really depends on how it coded on the backend and different PC changes might interact differently. It's bad they don't know but I'm not surprised with some of these zombie systems banks are using.
Yes, multiple times.
What did Citi PR folks say?
If i pced a AA business to business thankyou will that disqualify me for bonus? It was done maybe 4 months ago
That's what we are trying to work out.
(Posted this in another thread, but felt it more useful here... actually tried to post last week but after a much more thorough post, my internet kicked out once I hit "post" and it lost it, lol)
I called and spoke to a rep and asked the typical questions, they gave me the "No a PC means you closed it" so I said lets talk to a supervisor, he did, and his supervisor said "no it should not count as a close" then I asked to talk to a supervisor directly, and when I did, said supervisor put a note on my account that I will be eligible, despite if I should be or not. She read over the material at her disposal (for roughly, 5 minutes on hold?), and said no documentation they have clearly outlines what a product change is… so its a grey area, even she said, but she was very nice and put a note on my account saying to honor a signup in the TY family…. She was the head over the PHX office, so not just some low level supervisor....my circumstance is as follows….
May 2015 TY Premier opened,
July 2016 product change to Preferred
June 2017 product change to DOUBLE CASH
I will be a hard DP later in the year (as to whether it AUTO-gives me the credit, that is). For now I am under 5/24 so its DP’s for whether Chase Business Cards count toward 5/24 (conflicting reports) and just in general time to get more UR points for myself.
I do not think my comment was super descriptive, so please ask any questions if you've got them Doc or Chuck, or anyone. We shall get some DP's!!!!!
Uh later you talked about Chase so I was a little confused.
You talked about your old Premier got product changed to Preferred then to DC, but you did not talk about when you signed up for a new card... When was that?
Have not signed up for a new card yet. The chase stuff was unrelated. I was rambling. Sorry, ha.
I still dont understand your post. Since you have not signed up for a new card yet... technically, you do not have a personal data point to add...
The only main point from your post that I can understand is your conversation with Citi representatives. We already know that Citi representatives can give variable answers to different people so they are typically not reliable.
I welcome you to post later about your new Premier card after you sign up and after you know whether or not you will receive the sign up rewards at that point. Otherwise, it's all hypothetical situations at this time and no valid conclusion should come from your post.
Actually, she does already have a DP. Namely, what she said, "said supervisor put a note on my account that I will be eligible, despite if I should be or not".
So, it seems like we all just have to get a supervisor to put a note on our account. I like my odds a lot better with such a note.
Well boy l, I'm so sorry to make a comment on your sacred blog, in which I say "I will be a hard DP later in the year". The other major point of my post was that a high level supervisor said it was clearly a grey area... which is clearly why they won't give a PR firm answer.
Where is your hard DP or attempt to better the topic aside from telling people you already know?
Maybe you can try reading a little more before you start telling people when you'll accept their post, big shot.
People like you man, gah.
Does Citi get cranky if you cancel a card immediately after hitting minimum spend (like Amex)?
I think so yes
A related question is when is the 24 month rule applied, either 1) at application for new card or 2) when the bonus is earned (either when the spend is completed or the statement closes on which the spend is completed). #1 is better as it gives certainty - just open a new account before downgrading/PC, but the 24 month language seems to imply #2. So if its #2, I have a data point for product changes. I PCed an old Amex AA to a Dividend. Started the process in June. Citi takes ~45 days to complete a PC (in my case, PC will complete in August). Had opened a new AA about a week before I initiated the PC. Met the spend and received the 60k Bonus on first statement (in July), after the PC was initiated but before it was completed. So the initiation of a PC is not considered a closure if rule #2 is being used. Open question is whether I would have received the bonus if I had let the PC complete before meeting the spend, which if I had, would mean that rule #1 is the one being used by Citi.
Hey Mike, I posted a similar question to DOC Citi 24month thread. No one really knows for sure when the 24 month rule applies. Most bloggers including Chuck believe that closing old version of the card immediately after new card approval would be fine which supports your point number 1. William replied to my comment there and took a conservative stance and went with your point number 2.
It's safer to assume the worse and go with your point number 2. So, better to close/product change old card after you receive bonus from the new card.
You data point could also show that the bonus eligibility is set in stone when the application is approved, going with your point number 1. This is if you assume product changing means closure of old account on that day. It does take 45 days for the conversion to complete but I believe that number has more to do with if you later regret the conversion, you can still revert back at the 45day mark. As far as Citi is concern, I think they still assume the date of product change is the closure of old account. At least that's my guess.
Yes, I saw your question and DOC's response, and noted it was a more conservative approach than had been written previously. It was actually DOC's response to your question that prompted me to speed up my spend in order to complete it on the July statement, rather than on the August statement which will close after the PC has been completed. Didn't want extra risk on the 60K. Rule #1 does seem to be a lot easier to apply, everything is simply determined at time of application/approval. And with Citi's IT, they should be shooting for easier to program rules. (Of course, look how complicated they make TYP, by tying points earned to particular cards.) But until we know for sure, I agree with DOC's more recent position that it is prudent to assume rule #2 is the one Citi is using. Of course, I neglected to follow that by not waiting to do the PC until after the new card bonus posted. (My decision to not wait was also based on DOC's initial position that rule #1 clearly applied). On your point about whether Citi considers the date of PC to be the date of closure, in support of that, Citi did reverse the AF on the old AA that had been billed earlier in June, right after the PC call, even though the PC will not complete until August. On the other hand, when I asked what rewards I would receive if I happened to use the old AA prior to PC completion, I was told I would get AA miles. So who knows.
And yeah, It's likely that bonus eligibility is set when account is approved. Look at all the credit card sign up bonus... it should be set up that way. Probably more logical and natural for IT department to set it up that way. However, we never know unless more people give DPs. Maybe Citi IT can post something anonymously here. One can only dream right, haha!
Mike, you said "On the other hand, when I asked what rewards I would receive if I happened to use the old AA prior to PC completion, I was told I would get AA miles."
I dont think we should rely on what Citi says. They are not reliable. Actually, I was told the opposite in my case. I product changed Citi AA to Citi Dividend. Before I receive the Dividend card, I was told by Citi that I can earn Dividend dollars using my AA card since technically I already coverted... I didnt bother to double check or verify that. Either way, it's not really about what we are discussing. We can only rely on more objective data points from people. Hopefully more people will post about their PC experience.