Earlier we posted that American Express had completed another round of airline incidental clawbacks. On top of that there is a reddit user reporting that they had two years worth of credits claw backed. Previously I’ve only seen clawbacks for one year. If anybody got caught in the last clawback round let us know in the comments.
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This is a slippery slope. Are we going to eventually see Amex sending bills for refunds they decide they want to all of a sudden collect on 5,10, more years later? Where does it stop?
Stray thought, in part inspired by this thread and $450 a/f just posting for my Bonvoy Brilliant card…. In year’s past, I could rationalize it in part via the $300 of Marriott gcs…. Now, apart from the question of how to use or re-sell the gc’s, would the RAT teams at Amex come after me too? Already inclined to close this card; this worry may seal it.
I see DoC has already addressed this in part, in the March 4th update at the top: https://www.doctorofcredit.com/american-express-updates-terms-on-hilton-aspire-250-resort-credit-to-prevent-abuse/
Ok then, went to that Amex/Bonvoy link, and while I only see an explicit delimiting of on-line purchases of gift cards, the plausible risk of claw-backs starting seems much higher now. (even as I’m not sure if any of this language is actually new)
You could actually stay at a Marriott. If you aren’t staying at a Marriott how can you rationalize the $150 yearly charge even with selling the gift cards.
So they give you 120 days from the transaction to issue a charge back when the merchant is at fault, but they afford themselves six times that to charge you for bona fide purchases where they themselves made made the mistake.
They’re not charging you later, your purchase was correctly charged at the time of purchase.
They’re un-crediting you for their own mistaken credit.
What’s the difference? They applied the credit and made it appear to the consumer that it was used and presumptively denied the ability to use the credit on a future charge within the calendar year. Once the ability to use the credit has lapsed, they then apply a debit to the account. It’s a net charge to your account.
I am fine with them doing this. I am not sure what you are complaining about. Two years ago you could buy airline gift cards. There was no reason to do this. Even now there are work around where there is still a charge.
Because not every case of this was a workaround. Sometimes Amex just screwed up on what they credited through no fault of the customer. Simple example is a flight change fee that the airline then refunded since it shouldn’t have been charged. Amex zeros out your credit for the year and you think nothing of it, but your credit is zero so you make you charge decisions appropriately. Then a year later Amex charges you money because they screwed up, denying you credit you could have used elsewhere
Hey Doc, could you author a post guiding us how to submit Consumer Financial Protection Bureau complaints and maybe a passionate lawyer in the comments could craft the best language we should use in the complaint (and any other avenues), for those who get these “claw backs”?
So far on the reddit thread the only datapoints are for Delta GCs, not for any other airlines. Well, what’s special about Delta? Delta has a strong relationship with Amex (Amex issues Delta cards), which AA, UA, AS, WN, etc, don’t have. So it’ll interesting to see whether these GC clawbacks continue to be limited to DL only.
Also, for years only $50 GCs worked for Delta, but much bigger GCs worked for some other airlines. So there was also something else different for years about how Amex processed Delta GC incidental credits vs how it processed GC incidental credits for other airlines.
Also, gift cards continued to work the first few weeks of 2019. No one in that reddit thread has given specific dates yet of when they bought those gift cards, so it’s unclear whether the gift cards being clawed back are from early 2019 or from late 2018 or from early 2018. “Two years” (when the poster on reddit put in their title, but didn’t explain further) could mean all sort of things, and doesn’t necessarily mean all the way back to January 2018. That’s the problem with reddit, there’s not a culture of giving complete detailed information in datapoints there.
FWIW, I purchased lots of Delta gcs during that time to use for the credits and have not yet seen any clawbacks for myself or P2. Am monitoring closely, however.
You were right. This was way overblown with people never giving dates
I continue to believe there has to be more to the story. Something internally at Amex that is determining whether someone is “profitable” to them or not? I just don’t see them trying to piss off profitable customers. Or even ~mostly~ profitable customers. We definitely need more data points. We’re these the only purchases the OP over at reddit made on his platinum card? Or does he have a strong history of using his cards as Amex thinks they should be used?
Even though it is in their T&C that gift cards are not eligible, there is nothing wrong with buying a gift card directly from an airline. And if it happens that you have a card from American Express that has a airline credit and Amex issues you a credit after buying that gift card, then it is reasonable to assume they are okay with that. I would say this is particularly true if they know it’s a gift card when you bought it, as in some information exchanged from the airline (Level 3?).
Previous reports of clawbacks for refunded tickets seemed within the realm of tolerance if only because you didn’t actually buy anything. You bought something and returned it for a full refund. When you buy a gift card that’s a bona fide purchase.
Further, it is grossly inappropriate for American Express to say their systems weren’t working properly 15 months ago and when they credited you for a gift card purchase, they didn’t mean to do that, and so now since they made a mistake, they are going to charge you for it. That purchase you made didn’t count, wasn’t on our list, sorry about that.
This bad form I’m talking about should be reported to the CFPB in every instance. I can’t imagine the CFPB will think Amex is in the right for billing customers because a gift card was excluded from their list of acceptable charges, yet they did reimburse for it, and then 15 months later decided to bill the consumers.
so basically they want to charge $495-595 for a credit card which only makes sense to get because you can use the credit, but they were banking on many people not using the credit, so now they want to clawback because they made too many bad decisions in executing the reimbursements as well as in extending credit to bad credit risk people.
maybe they incur tax or party risk from the airline if there is a refund.
whatever it is it makes me not want to get their cards ever.
amex should know that pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered and they are posing off their clients able to afford such cards
how is it fair if months later it’s a new cycle and now they decide they shouldn’t have given u the teimbursement?
hope there’s a class action suit and some lawyers get rich to teach amex a lesson
Class action suit because you charged a airline ticket got it refunded and then the credit is clawbacked? Good luck with that.
I have told people that even with a 60k sign up bonus these Amex Platinum without GC purchase isn’t even worth it for the first year. I only got Ameriprise Platinums when the fee was free the first year. Otherwise these cards are terrible. I can eat at the airport restaurant easily enough.
Can’t claw back if the account is already closed 🙂
LOL. That’s what you think…
Correct Tom. Just happened to closed plat card.
How does that work?
they send a bill to your old address. if you changed your address and doesn’t get paid it gets sent to collections if amex chooses and a hit on your credit. enjoy your hand.
they send a bill to your old address. if you changed your address and/or it doesn’t get paid then it gets sent to collections if amex chooses and a hit on your credit. enjoy your hand.
Radio blackout please. Stop talking about what “works.” Delete all threads on FT Reddit, and blogs. Scorched earth is the only viable policy. Let Amex do their own detective work.
Solid plan. I guess you’ll stay off social media then and figure what “works” on your own.
We should probably just nuke the entire internet from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
I’ve been in this points game longer than social media existed and figured out things on my own via careful trial and error (seldom error due to caution). Yes, people can learn without circles and arrows. No clawbacks from this wave because I closed most of those type cards over 2 years ago when I saw how they were acting. I’m basically only interested in cashback programs since we don’t care about traveling for a long time. Saw the handwriting on the wall in the summer of 2019 with too many tourists in small regions and virus spreading like crazy. Cashback is king.
Really Ed? You saw the Coronavirus coming in 2019? Should be a mega billionaire if this is a case since you can see the future.
I cashed in $1750 of Chase points. Getting $250 cash sign up bonuses now. All my flights are cancelled and I have a ton of hotel free nights, hotel points, tons airline miles from Delta, AA, and Southwest. $250 cash is better than 50k miles right now. Who knows how badly things will be devalued one traveling starts up again.
“Amex used Claw Attack…”
“It’s super effective!”